paizo.com - Forums / Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I own the the physical copy of an adventure path. Is there no way I can get the Foundry VTT for it without also paying for the PDF? (2024)

I usually prefer playing in-person games, but I want to experiment with VTTs and potentially integrating them into my table. I did some research and saw that I must buy the PDF in order to be eligible to buy the Foundry code. But what if I own a physical copy of said product? This is the case with my copy of Beginner's Box and Abomination Vaults. This is going to potentially be a problem for me because my preferred way to prep my sessions is through the use of physicals books with a pen and paper. I struggle with going through PDFs and I much prefer having the physical adventure path in my lap as I read on about what's going on in the adventure while sipping my coffee. Now I'm facing the possibility of having to purchase an AP twice just so I can run it on Foundry.

I hope my problem isn't unique to me. Let me know if you guys know anything that I don't know. As it stands, I feel a bit dejected that I'm going to have to shell out for a PDF I don't plan on using when I already own the physical book.

Buying the book pays for the editors, writers, bookbinders, and others involved in making the hard copy books.

Buying the digital assets pays for the programmers, server managers, IT professionals, and others involved in setting up and maintaining VTT support.

Please don't pay one and not the other if you intend to use both, even if you find a loophole or workaround of some kind. People work hard on this stuff, often have families that they need to provide for, and aren't deserving of being robbed.

If you prefer physical copies (loads of people, like you and me, quickly get "screen fatigue") then it's pretty simple to just read from said physical copy whilst running the game on VTT. I know several GMs who run their games this way.

dangadget69 wrote:

I think there has been a misunderstanding.

When you purchase the FoundryVTT version of Beginner's Box or Abomination Vaults, you will also get a copy of the PDF.
If you purchase the PDF first, I believe you can get a discount on the Foundry version

Thank you for your reply. I understand what you're trying to say, but my specific query is owning a physical copy of a Paizo product and then trying to purchase a VTT code to run an adventure through Foundry.

Ravingdork wrote:

Buying the book pays for the editors, writers, bookbinders, and others involved in making the hard copy books.

Buying the digital assets pays for the programmers, server managers, IT professionals, and others involved in setting up and maintaining VTT support.

Please don't pay one and not the other if you intend to use both, even if you find a loophole or workaround of some kind. People work hard on this stuff, often have families that they need to provide for, and aren't deserving of being robbed.

If you prefer physical copies (loads of people, like you and me, quickly get "screen fatigue") then it's pretty simple to just read from said physical copy whilst running the game on VTT. I know several GMs who run their games this way.

Thank you for your response. I'm all for supporting companies like Paizo. But I also support my Local Game Store by trying to buy as many of my physical products through them. Most of my physical Pathfinder products I own are purchased through my LGS.

Now, unless I'm misreading your comment it seems that if I buy my physical product through the Paizo store it will enable me to pay just for the Foundry module?

Incase clarification is needed, I do fully intend to purchase the Foundry VTT code through Paizo. My issue comes with having to purchase a PDF for an adventure that I already own a physical copy of in order to buy the Foundry VTT code. And while I understand the rationale behind locking the VTT code purchase behind having to own the PDF, I do feel disappointed that I'm going to have to purchase the PDF for a product that I already paid for.

guise709 wrote:

Now, unless I'm misreading your comment it seems that if I buy my physical product through the Paizo store it will enable me to pay just for the Foundry module?

If you sign up for one or more Paizo subscriptions, you get the hardcopy and PDF both with some nice discounts. That would also get you a discount on related VTT packages if you link your accounts and got the corresponding PDF(s) through Paizo's website.

I think it would be more accurate to say you can't buy the AP's Foundry module without owning the PDF or buying it bundled with the module. I'm pretty sure this is a legal requirement for Foundry-- their various premium modules and free PDF importers require water marks to deter piracy. Unfortunately I don't think that's possible with physical books purchased at your local store.

So yeah, you're stuck paying the PDF price one way or another. But if it makes you feel any better, you'll barely need a physical book or PDF to run it on foundry. It's not just every map in a foundry premium module. You get every room description, stat block, lore, and treasure drop one click away in the relevant room. I very occasionally find myself looking something up in the book. Usually it's something like a chapter introduction that isn't tied to a single location, but you can find those in the journal entries. So while you have to buy the adventure twice, the PDF and physical copies will be equally unnecessary to your play experience. (You'll probably want to use that for an initial cover to cover read through, though.)

Ravingdork wrote:

guise709 wrote:

Now, unless I'm misreading your comment it seems that if I buy my physical product through the Paizo store it will enable me to pay just for the Foundry module?

If you sign up for one or more Paizo subscriptions, you get the hardcopy and PDF both with some nice discounts. That would also get you a discount on related VTT packages if you link your accounts and got the corresponding PDF(s) through Paizo's website.

You also have a chance to PDFs a couple weeks before the street release date because of Paizo's shipping policies, but that's luck of the draw as to when your book is shipped.

To use an analogy, the pdf you get with the purchase of a foundry module is sort of like a free soundtrack or artbook attached to a video game. All of those assets are already in the purchase they're just being presented to you in an alternate package that might be more convenient for you to consume some times.

As for discounts for those who already own the pdf, that probably has more to do with acting as a loss leader/ incentive to try Foundry.

Cori Marie wrote:

You're not purchasing the PDF. You're purchasing the Foundry module, which in turn gives you a free PDF. The reason for this is that all of the text and art of the PDF are also included in the module itself. If you already own the PDF, Paizo is nice enough to offer a discount when purchasing the module, since you already own that digital good.

I gotta say, I'm a huge Foundry Stan and I have no personal qualms with the charging structure myself... But this framing rings hollow for me. It feels like semantics. The OP is going to pay $59.99 USD. If they already owned the PDF, they'd pay $21. That $39.99 difference is exactly what Paizo charges for the PDF by itself. That's not a coincidence, nor is Paizo giving him something at an actual discount. Th

Paizo needs to get paid for the work they put into creating that adventure before Foundry can make money off it. There's nothing wrong with that. The dollar amounts are all completely fair and consistent. The only problem this purchase model lacks compatibility with physical books. Arguing who you are paying for what kind of misses the point of the OP, which is that they are paying another $38.99 for an asset they already purchased for $54.99. All the reframing in the world doesn't change that fact. I also don't think Paizo CAN change that fact. It's just one of the many tradeoffs between physival and digital media in the modern age.

Squark wrote:

As for discounts for those who already own the pdf, that probably has more to do with acting as a loss leader/ incentive to try Foundry.

For what it's worth, Paizo has a similar arrangement with Smiteworks (devs. of Fantasy Grounds Unity) and Demiplane; and until quite recently, with Roll 20 -- you linked your accounts, buying the VTT conversion meant getting the PDF on Paizo, while owning the PDF on Paizo granted a discount on the licensed VTT version.

It's more of a Paizo thing than a VTT thing as far as I can tell; at least, I'm not aware yet of any other TTRPG publisher that has similar arrangement with independent VTT developers (i.e. WOTC offers discounted hardcover + DDB bundles, but they /own/ DDB).

What might help to reframe it is if consider the alternative to PDF packaging. The VTT would still need to pay Paizo a cut of any premium module because they are using Paizo's content, so the "base" price would need to be higher. IDK if you'd be paying the full $38.99, but it would have to be close. After all, Paizo has deemed $38.99 the cost of one GM being able to run the AP for a group with no physical printing. That cost would remain constant regardless of what platform you play it on.

So Squark's example seems the most apt. You need to pay for the digital asset (PDF) as a prerequisite of using that digital asset+. (VTT module.)

Ravingdork wrote:

Buying the book pays for the editors, writers, bookbinders, and others involved in making the hard copy books.

Buying the digital assets pays for the programmers, server managers, IT professionals, and others involved in setting up and maintaining VTT support.

Please don't pay one and not the other if you intend to use both, even if you find a loophole or workaround of some kind. People work hard on this stuff, often have families that they need to provide for, and aren't deserving of being robbed.

If you prefer physical copies (loads of people, like you and me, quickly get "screen fatigue") then it's pretty simple to just read from said physical copy whilst running the game on VTT. I know several GMs who run their games this way.

I would have assumed that the OP is just trying to be aware of deals and bundles which have existed before rather than somehow trying to exploit a storefront 'loophole'. If a website is offering a bundle, its on them, not the consumer, to compensate both creators.

The alternative, and unfortunately usual, scenario is that OP pays extra, even twice, for something that was officially offered cheaper as a bundle due to missing credentials, or one website not talking to another.

It's not wrong for a consumer to try and find the best deal, and far from it to suggest they might be robbing people or their families just for asking. The people you should be saying that to are already looking on piracy sites, not those asking on official forums.

Okay everyone. Thank you for all your responses and I appreciate the discussion around it. It does looks like I'm getting the short end of the stick here having to purchase the same product twice if I want a physical copy while running a module through Foundry.

Just out of curiosity, and a shot into the dark, I'm going to email Paizo support and see what the official response is. I do not expect anything to come out of it, but perhaps it might bring attention to the gap between owning physical products and digital one's that one of the posters mentioned earlier.

Once again thank you for all your responses.

Cori Marie wrote:

You're not purchasing the PDF. You're purchasing the Foundry module, which in turn gives you a free PDF. The reason for this is that all of the text and art of the PDF are also included in the module itself. If you already own the PDF, Paizo is nice enough to offer a discount when purchasing the module, since you already own that digital good.

It's not a "free PDF". You're paying for the PDF, as evidenced by the fact that if you already own the PDF you get a discount that strips that part off.

Claiming its a "free PDF" is marketing spin, to put it kindly. It'd be better to just be honest and say "you need to own the PDF to have the adventure content in Foundry, and this is how they handle that."

guise709 wrote:

Okay everyone. Thank you for all your responses and I appreciate the discussion around it. It does looks like I'm getting the short end of the stick here having to purchase the same product twice if I want a physical copy while running a module through Foundry.

Just out of curiosity, and a shot into the dark, I'm going to email Paizo support and see what the official response is. I do not expect anything to come out of it, but perhaps it might bring attention to the gap between owning physical products and digital one's that one of the posters mentioned earlier.

Once again thank you for all your responses.

I feel you, as I'm in the same boat: physical books from the local game store don't count for any of this. The subscription isn't really better because while it does come with PDFs, the shipping cost to Canada is so high that it's the same price (if not outright more) than buying the book at the LGS and also buying the PDF separately (and doesn't support the LGS carrying Pathfinder products).

Do keep an eye out for Humble Bundles though: Paizo does those once or twice a year and there's been some since the Foundry partnership was announced that included Foundry versions of adventures in the bundle. These are an incredible value and also raise money for charity.

Tridus wrote:

Cori Marie wrote:

You're not purchasing the PDF. You're purchasing the Foundry module, which in turn gives you a free PDF. The reason for this is that all of the text and art of the PDF are also included in the module itself. If you already own the PDF, Paizo is nice enough to offer a discount when purchasing the module, since you already own that digital good.

It's not a "free PDF". You're paying for the PDF, as evidenced by the fact that if you already own the PDF you get a discount that strips that part off.

Claiming its a "free PDF" is marketing spin, to put it kindly. It'd be better to just be honest and say "you need to own the PDF to have the adventure content in Foundry, and this is how they handle that."

guise709 wrote:

Okay everyone. Thank you for all your responses and I appreciate the discussion around it. It does looks like I'm getting the short end of the stick here having to purchase the same product twice if I want a physical copy while running a module through Foundry.

Just out of curiosity, and a shot into the dark, I'm going to email Paizo support and see what the official response is. I do not expect anything to come out of it, but perhaps it might bring attention to the gap between owning physical products and digital one's that one of the posters mentioned earlier.

Once again thank you for all your responses.

I feel you, as I'm in the same boat: physical books from the local game store don't count for any of this. The subscription isn't really better because while it does come with PDFs, the shipping cost to Canada is so high that it's the same price (if not outright more) than buying the book at the LGS and also buying the PDF separately (and doesn't support the LGS carrying Pathfinder products).

Do keep an eye out for Humble Bundles though: Paizo does those once or twice a year and there's been some since the Foundry partnership was announced that included Foundry versions of adventures in the bundle. These are an incredible value and...

It isn't necessarily true that bundled items are economically separable in this way-- my understanding is that Paizo gives you a free pdf with the foundry module because the journals and maps in the module contain the complete contents of the pdf in digital form, from their perspective you're already buying the text and images, so getting the PDF along with it is Quality-Of-Life, meaning the pdf likely isn't factored into the price because it's effectively already included in the Foundry module. You can I believe, just export the journal entries and maps out of the module to have the full contents of the pdf.

The reverse, where you get a discount on the module by owning the pdf, but have to still pay for the Foundry portions is because the automation is additional work vs. the contents of the pdf, so Paizo is effectively saying "we already got our cut of this, you can just pay for the foundry portion."

But there's no way to do the reverse of that, because there's no way to remove paizo's work from the foundry module, while still having a foundry module.

I feel like all the talk about economic conditions or bundle separability is kind of obfuscating the point (but idk that might be the goal).

Someone who buys the physical copy of the game is both paying more up front and paying full price for the digital tools, whereas someone who bought the PDF gets a discount on the digital tools.

That, pretty understandably, can feel like a raw deal for the person who wanted the physical merchandise, since they're paying more money at every step of the process.

There are various economic reasons why Paizo might like this arrangement, but it's rough on the consumer and not all that weird they aren't a fan.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

It isn't necessarily true that bundled items are economically separable in this way-- my understanding is that Paizo gives you a free pdf with the foundry module because the journals and maps in the module contain the complete contents of the pdf in digital form, from their perspective you're already buying the text and images, so getting the PDF along with it is Quality-Of-Life, meaning the pdf likely isn't factored into the price because it's effectively already included in the Foundry module. You can I believe, just export the journal entries and maps out of the module to have the full contents of the pdf.

The reverse, where you get a discount on the module by owning the pdf, but have to still pay for the Foundry portions is because the automation is additional work vs. the contents of the pdf, so Paizo is effectively saying "we already got our cut of this, you can just pay for the foundry portion."

But there's no way to do the reverse of that, because there's no way to remove paizo's work from the foundry module, while still having a foundry module.

The difference in price between the Foundry module where you already own the PDF and the Foundry model that includes a "free PDF" is literally the cost of the PDF.

Since there is a price if you have the PDF and a price where there isn't, and the price difference is the value of the PDF, it's impossible to claim in any way with a straight face that this is a "free PDF".

It is accurate to say "you must own the PDF as part of using the Foundry module, and we won't make you pay for the PDF a second time."

It also doesn't seem like its actually mandatory to do it this way since Roll20 recently stopped offering Paizo PDFs or discounts related to Paizo PDFs.

I don't have any problem with how Foundry is doing this and if they want to effectively pay Paizo's cut by saying "you need to own the PDF so that's how Paizo gets paid", that's totally fine. But don't call it free when people are paying for it.

Physical books are of course left out of this entirely, which for people buying physical but also using Foundry is extremely frustrating. I know, I'm one of them. PDFs are functionally useless to me but I get to buy them anyway in order to use what's in a book I already paid for. That situation is really not great and as book prices keep going up is probably going to reduce what I can buy in the future.

So you can probably see how claiming its "free" when in fact people paid for it twice is not going to fly.

Tridus wrote:

The difference in price between the Foundry module where you already own the PDF and the Foundry model that includes a "free PDF" is literally the cost of the PDF.

Since there is a price if you have the PDF and a price where there isn't, and the price difference is the value of the PDF, it's impossible to claim in any way with a straight face that this is a "free PDF".

[snip]
So you can probably see how claiming its "free" when in fact people paid for it twice is not going to fly.

AS you so eloquently explain in the first part of your post, you are not paying for anything twice.

There are two separate products on sale by Paizo.
1) A physical printed book
2) A digital file

You can buy the physical book from Paizo or from a store (online or brick and mortar).
You can buy the digital file from Paizo or from a game platform (online).

You can by either product without also buying the other one. You can run the module without also buying the other one. They are entirely separate.

So you're not 'paying twice' when you buy two separate products.
And, as you pointed out, you're not 'paying twice' when you buy the game from Foundary.

Your complaint assumes that a digital product and a physical product are one and the same, and that if you buy one of them, you are automatically entitled to the other product without any further payment.

That assumption does not align with reality.

Tridus wrote:

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

It isn't necessarily true that bundled items are economically separable in this way-- my understanding is that Paizo gives you a free pdf with the foundry module because the journals and maps in the module contain the complete contents of the pdf in digital form, from their perspective you're already buying the text and images, so getting the PDF along with it is Quality-Of-Life, meaning the pdf likely isn't factored into the price because it's effectively already included in the Foundry module. You can I believe, just export the journal entries and maps out of the module to have the full contents of the pdf.

The reverse, where you get a discount on the module by owning the pdf, but have to still pay for the Foundry portions is because the automation is additional work vs. the contents of the pdf, so Paizo is effectively saying "we already got our cut of this, you can just pay for the foundry portion."

But there's no way to do the reverse of that, because there's no way to remove paizo's work from the foundry module, while still having a foundry module.

The difference in price between the Foundry module where you already own the PDF and the Foundry model that includes a "free PDF" is literally the cost of the PDF.

Since there is a price if you have the PDF and a price where there isn't, and the price difference is the value of the PDF, it's impossible to claim in any way with a straight face that this is a "free PDF".

It is accurate to say "you must own the PDF as part of using the Foundry module, and we won't make you pay for the PDF a second time."

It also doesn't seem like its actually mandatory to do it this way since Roll20 recently stopped offering Paizo PDFs or discounts related to Paizo PDFs.

I don't have any problem with how Foundry is doing this and if they want to effectively pay Paizo's cut by saying "you need to own the PDF so that's how Paizo gets paid", that's totally fine. But don't call it free when people are paying for it....

There is no price for the foundry module without the adventure, because the foundry module automates the adventure, you can get the adventure being automated without the automation and then pay for the automation separately later, but you can't get the automation for the adventure without the adventure because that fundamentally doesn't make sense, that would be getting the adventure without paying for it, and only paying for the automation of it. The pdf is equivalent to the journal entries, art entries, and statblocks available in the files of the module.

Squiggit wrote:

I feel like all the talk about economic conditions or bundle separability is kind of obfuscating the point (but idk that might be the goal).

Someone who buys the physical copy of the game is both paying more up front and paying full price for the digital tools, whereas someone who bought the PDF gets a discount on the digital tools.

That, pretty understandably, can feel like a raw deal for the person who wanted the physical merchandise, since they're paying more money at every step of the process.

There are various economic reasons why Paizo might like this arrangement, but it's rough on the consumer and not all that weird they aren't a fan.

That's obviously a non-starter, owning the physical book is less equivalent to the content of the book presented in the foundry module as digital files than a pdf would be.

I am saying that the foundry module, contains the complete text and artwork of the pdf, that it displays in foundry's internal reader as journal entries, artwork, and maps. and presents it more or less as a book.

It is not possible for the foundry module to exist without also giving you the full text, art, and maps in the process of downloading it, with only a perfunctory difference in convenience of viewing the material and layout achieved from the pdf.

Dancing Wind wrote:

Tridus wrote:

The difference in price between the Foundry module where you already own the PDF and the Foundry model that includes a "free PDF" is literally the cost of the PDF.

Since there is a price if you have the PDF and a price where there isn't, and the price difference is the value of the PDF, it's impossible to claim in any way with a straight face that this is a "free PDF".

[snip]
So you can probably see how claiming its "free" when in fact people paid for it twice is not going to fly.

AS you so eloquently explain in the first part of your post, you are not paying for anything twice.

There are two separate products on sale by Paizo.
1) A physical printed book
2) A digital file

You can buy the physical book from Paizo or from a store (online or brick and mortar).
You can buy the digital file from Paizo or from a game platform (online).

You can by either product without also buying the other one. You can run the module without also buying the other one. They are entirely separate.

So you're not 'paying twice' when you buy two separate products.
And, as you pointed out, you're not 'paying twice' when you buy the game from Foundary.

Your complaint assumes that a digital product and a physical product are one and the same, and that if you buy one of them, you are automatically entitled to the other product without any further payment.

That assumption does not align with reality.

You just snipped out the entire part where I finished talking about how they don't make you pay for the PDF twice by discounting the module if you already own the PDF and switch topics to talking about how the physical version is left out (which is what OP is talking about), and then created something new to reply to that.

That's disingenuous at best. I know very well that the PDF and physical book aren't the same thing. Its two different situations, and the post very clearly addresses them separately.

It doesn't change that if you have the physical book and the foundry module you did buy the content twice, and it doesn't change that the PDF is not "Free" as some people want to falsely insist.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

There is no price for the foundry module without the adventure, because the foundry module automates the adventure, you can get the adventure being automated without the automation and then pay for the automation separately later, but you can't get the automation for the adventure without the adventure because that fundamentally doesn't make sense, that would be getting the adventure without paying for it, and only paying for the automation of it. The pdf is equivalent to the journal entries, art entries, and statblocks available in the files of the module.

Yeah, and? You didn't disagree with anything I said. All that is true.

It's also true that its not a free PDF. You're very clearly paying for it, and you just explained why. If people stop trying to insist a thing you're paying for is actually "free", then there's no issue.

This all kind of hinges on one question: Does owning the physical version of the book entitle you to its PDF? Intuitively, it feels like it should. It is the same intellectual content, minus the cost of physically printing it. The PDFs are always cheaper than physical media.

But Paizo has never let you get the PDF for free when purchasing physical books, even off their own website. Maybe that's because PDFs carry a higher risk of piracy and that's factored into the price. (My alma matter charged you $81 dollars a semester among your tuition and fees to cover the costs of anyone stealing from them.) Maybe there's additional utility in having the digital assets for splicing into your own campaign website or uploading into a VTT. (That's definitely true.) There are probably other reasons I can't think of.

The one exception Paizo makes: subscribers. They pay the cost of their book + shipping and get the PDF thrown in. But that sort of predictable revenue has serious business advantages over adhoc purchases, so it's not surprising it comes with perks. And I am guessing people willing to shell out to Paizo that reliably are less of a piracy risk. (But not zero risk, since I have certainly heard of people pirating books before their release date.)

In practical terms, it's just not feasible.

"If I buy the book, I should get the PDF." The immediate question is how, and there are two routes.

"Well, if I buy it from Paizo, they know I bought it." The problem here is that it would push people even more to buy from Paizo instead of their FLGS, which means stores might drop in protest or simply because they aren't selling enough. Paizo does this just for subscriptions because the subscription model is so valuable for getting the right number of books printed, and ensuring enough sales to make printing viable. Subscriptions help ensure that there can be books for stores to sell, and stores selling the book help bring in new players to keep the hobby alive.

"Okay then, how about a download code in the book?" This would probably cause more issues. Many people who buy a physical book don't care about the PDF, so that's a lot of codes floating around to be given out. Some people would come to expect the PDFs for free, increasing piracy of Paizo's products. Moreover, the books would have to be plastic-wrapped to prevent people just taking the code. That would mean people couldn't browse the books on shelf, and Paizo would have to support complaints from people who got a book with a claimed code. It's spending more money to make less.

If Paizo were to give PDFs and VTT options along with their hardcopy books, they would need to raise prices on said books to compensate. In addition to the logistical headaches mentioned by QuidEst above, anyone who wasn't interested in the digital content would be wasting a portion of their funds for nothing.

If anything, that would probably cost everyone more than the current model.

So sayeth a professional graphic designer and book binder of nearly 30 years.